[select] Clarify use of Enter/Space keys for opening/closing listbox

[dandclark]

The tables in https://open-ui.org/components/select#events-1 suggest that either Enter key or Spacebar can be used to open the select's listbox when the popup is closed. If the listbox is opened (and contains focus), either Enter key or Spacebar can be used to close it.

The behavior I observe in browsers is a bit different:
Chromium: Either Enter or Spacebar can open the listbox. Only Enter can close it.
Firefox: Only Spacebar can open the listbox. Only Enter can close it.
Safari: Only Spacebar can open the listbox. Either Enter or Spacebar can close it.

Is there any particular reason to prefer any of these? My preference is to keep the current behavior at https://open-ui.org/components/select#events-1, but since all these browsers are different maybe there's some reason to be more restrictive that I'm not understanding.

[chrisdholt]

@dandclark Should we perhaps drive towards a more objective standard here in the ARIA practices documentation? Select is essentially a non-editable combobox (though I suppose we are looking to support that behavior as well). Should the behavior in question align to this document?

[dandclark]

Yes, aligning to the ARIA practices does seem like the reasonable thing to do here.

[andrico1234]

It also looks like the Open UI spec supports typeahead. Could this cause a conflict as the space could both close the select box and type text?

[chrisdholt]

It also looks like the Open UI spec supports typeahead. Could this cause a conflict as the space could both close the select box and type text?

In the case of aligning to ARIA practices, I don't believe space would close the box: https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#combobox-keyboard-interaction - a benefit of aligning with that standard rather than with browser specific conventions is that we avoid the issue altogether :)

[css-meeting-bot]

The Open UI Community Group just discussed TPAC Demos, anyone interested?.

The full IRC log of that discussion

<gregwhitworth> Topic: TPAC Demos, anyone interested?
<hdv> scribe: hdv
<hdv> gregwhitworth: I wanted to bring to folks' attention that TPAC is coming up in the middle of October, various groups getting together
<hdv> gregwhitworth: a common thing that happens is that demos are done
<hdv> gregwhitworth: so wanted to ask if there is any work that we have done that we would like to bring to that
<hdv> gregwhitworth: I'm thinking about things like select and spicy sections
<hdv> gregwhitworth: it's like a 'hey this is what we're working on'
<hdv> q+
<gregwhitworth> hdv: I would like to present about stuff here
<masonf> q+
<gregwhitworth> hdv: I realize that I'm not doing the work
<gregwhitworth> hdv: but if they're not I'm happy to help
<gregwhitworth> hdv: it's great work
<gregwhitworth> ack hdv
<gregwhitworth> ack masonf
<nicole> how far along should things be?
<hdv> masonf: I'd be happy to demo the popup
<hdv> gregwhitworth: nicole, it's basically like a snapshot, anything to show, can be in any stage
<nicole> So toggle might be appropriate, great
<hdv> miriam: my understanding is that these are very short videos, 2-5 minutes
<hdv> miriam: I am doing a few too for CSSWG
<hdv> [ +1, 2-5 mins is my understanding too for TPAC demo videos ]
<hdv> gregwhitworth: I can find out some more info, we could also do one 5 min one video about various things
<hdv> gregwhitworth: so would be kind of snapshot
<hdv> dandclark: seems like a short demo would be really good format for showing select
<hdv> github: https://github.com//issues/386
<dandclark> https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#keyboard-interaction-6

[css-meeting-bot]

The Open UI Community Group just discussed [select] Clarify use of Enter/Space keys for opening/closing listbox.

The full IRC log of that discussion

<gregwhitworth> Topic: [select] Clarify use of Enter/Space keys for opening/closing listbox
<gregwhitworth> github: https://github.com//issues/386
<hdv> dandclark: I agree with chris, we should follow what's in the ARIA Authoring Practices
<hdv> chrisdholt_: I agree with you and myself
<chrisdholt_> q+
<hdv> gregwhitworth: should we do a resolution?
<hdv> q+
<gregwhitworth> q+
<gregwhitworth> ack chrisdholt_
<hdv> chrisdholt_: there are a lot of things that exist in design systems that exist, but are not necessarily good, they just exist
<hdv> chrisdholt_: so there are certain patterns that implementers and AT drive towards
<gregwhitworth> ack hdv
<gregwhitworth> hdv: I just saw that ARIA practices is a github preview, if we do a resolution there is a link or something?
<gregwhitworth> hdv: there can be a difference so if we link to it we have the correct link
<gregwhitworth> ack hdv
<chrisdholt_> I do believe 1.2 is out...though it may not be the link in my issue
<gregwhitworth> ack gregwhitworth
<chrisdholt_> q+
<nicole> queue
<hdv> gregwhitworth: I do wonder if Authoring Practices TF group has heard any feedback about whether it meets users needs
<nicole> queue+
<gregwhitworth> ack chrisdholt_
<hdv> chrisdholt_: a lot of what I've seen is knowledge… teams did what they felt is best, or what designers specced was based on what they felt was right for users
<hdv> chrisdholt_: I know the current carousel has some feedback
<hdv> chrisdholt_: there is a clear avenue to raise concerns
<gregwhitworth> ack nicole
<hdv> chrisdholt_: we best work with Authoring Practices group and not against them
<hdv> nicole: agreed we should work with these groups, but it is also good to note some patterns are out of date
<gregwhitworth> q+
<hdv> nicole: I've also seen that some components have merged into a single component, like accordion on mobile and tabs on desktop, ARIA guidance kind of prohibits that, so not sure if that's the right thing
<hdv> nicole: so in certain cases need to look at whether we need to update ARIA too
<hdv> q+
<gregwhitworth> ack hdv
<gregwhitworth> hdv: sometimes the ARIA guidance is out of date and it wasn't user tested, it was made with input from experts but not necessarly user tested
<gregwhitworth> hdv: it denotes if you're using the correct ARIA
<gregwhitworth> hdv: if we do our own user testing or find issues then we should update the info
<dandclark> q+
<hdv> gregwhitworth: I feel like there's agreement, based on what folks have seens, currently ARIA Authoring Practices make sense for the use case we're currently discussing (while also acknowledging that for some paterns they aren't always perfect)
<dandclark> q-
<hdv> [ +1 to gregwhitworth ]
<gregwhitworth> Proposed Resolution: any Open UI component that handles Enter/Space in combobox/dropdown/select type controls should defer to Aria Best Practices design
<hdv> chrisdholt_: I think that makes sense… our intent is to follow the authoring practices usually and provide input if needed
<hdv> chrisdholt_: so I think we bent towards using what authoring practices say, and maybe verify if they work and maybe also identify gaps and help the TF close it
<hdv> Resolved: any Open UI component that handles Enter/Space in combobox/dropdown/select type controls should defer to Aria Best Practices design
<hdv> RRSAgent, draft minutes please
<RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-openui-minutes.html hdv
<hdv> gregwhitworth: when I presented this to ARIA WG, they said they wanted the authoring practices not to exist in the long term, if controls would exist that do it
<hdv> gregwhitworth: so another resolution could be to take authoring practices as a starting point for our components
<hdv> chrisdholt_: agreed… 'as a starting point' is the key word
<gregwhitworth> Proposed Resolution: When working on specification text for behaviors and interactions leverage the ARIA Best Practices as a starting point
<chrisdholt_> lgtm
<dandclark> lgtm
<hdv> gregwhitworth: so maybe if we would end up standardising tabs and they are done, the authoring practices could be updated to link to the open ui page for that
<hdv> Resolved: When working on specification text for behaviors and interactions leverage the ARIA Best Practices as a starting point

[github-actions]

There hasn't been any discussion on this issue for a while, so we're marking it as stale. If you choose to kick off the discussion again, we'll remove the 'stale' label.

[chaance]

I quickly read through the IRC logs and I didn't see it noted, but if the selectmenu is used as a form control I'd expect Enter to trigger an implicit submission for UAs that support it. Would that distinction make a difference for a selectmenu that isn't associated with a form?